TERRY GROSS, HOST:

That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Lots of people have been nervously joking prior to now couple of years that it looks like the Finish Occasions – with the pandemic, record-setting floods, hurricanes, tornadoes and fires, environmental crises, battle and fears that democracies have gotten extra authoritarian. For many who take the New Testomony’s E-book of Revelation actually, they might really imagine that is the Finish Occasions. The Finish Occasions have been prophesied relationship again to not less than the time of Jesus, who preached the top was close to.

The outline of the top in Revelation reads like a horror movie, with fantastical, monstrous beasts and large, surreal bugs, in addition to plagues, wars, a lake of fireplace and torture. That is what those that have not accepted Jesus because the Messiah will face. Believers will rise to heaven to be with God. Revelation is essentially the most controversial e book within the New Testomony. Many students suppose it should not have been included within the Bible.

My visitor, Bart Ehrman, is without doubt one of the students who thinks Revelation presents a really disturbing and inconsistent imaginative and prescient of God. He explains why in his new e book, “Armageddon: What The Bible Actually Says About The Finish.” He writes {that a} literal studying of Revelation has created disastrous issues, together with private and psychological harm and has, quote, “affected our world in methods you won’t count on, involving carnage, U.S. international coverage and the welfare of our planet,” unquote.

As his many readers know, he was an evangelical Christian in school and believed the top was close to. He studied on the evangelical Moody Bible Institute. However whereas attending Princeton Theological Seminary, he stopped believing within the literal reality of the Bible. Finally, he grew to become an agnostic. However he is continued his work as a Bible scholar. He is the creator of many books, together with the bestseller “Misquoting Jesus.” He is a distinguished professor of spiritual research on the College of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Bart Ehrman, welcome again to FRESH AIR. It’s all the time a pleasure to speak with you.

BART EHRMAN: Effectively, thanks. Thanks very a lot. It is a pleasure to be right here.

GROSS: So let’s speak in regards to the fundamental story of the apocalypse as advised within the E-book of Revelation. What brings on the apocalypse and the second coming of Jesus?

EHRMAN: So on this e book, we’ve got a prophet named John – who calls himself John. And he says he is on the island of Patmos, off of the west coast of Turkey. And he writes his e book about varied visions that he has had that he signifies are predictions of what’s quickly to happen, he says. It should occur very quickly. He goes up – he is transported as much as heaven. And whereas – when he is there, he sees the imaginative and prescient of God. God himself is sitting on the throne, and in his hand is a scroll that’s sealed with seven seals.

This scroll is – seems to be holding the secrets and techniques to the way forward for Earth. And the factor about these seals is that no one can break them. It seems that there’s one who can. It is a lamb who has been slain – a reference to Christ. What finally ends up occurring is Christ receives the scroll from God, and he begins breaking the seals. There are seven seals. He breaks them, and each time he breaks one, an enormous disaster hits the Earth – battle, hunger, varied sorts of calamities, you realize, pure disasters.

And when he breaks the seventh seal, we’re launched to seven angels who’ve seven trumpets. They blow their trumpets. And each time they blow a trumpet, a catastrophe hits the Earth. And when the seventh trumpet will get blown, we’re launched to seven angels who’re carrying bowls of God’s wrath. And each pours out God’s wrath on the Earth – extra disasters, one after the opposite.

And so plenty and lots more and plenty of individuals are being slaughtered and killed in pure disasters and so forth till the top. Lastly, God intervenes and there is a large battle between Christ and his opponent on Earth, a determine known as the beast, on the battle of Armageddon. And Christ slays the beast and slays the armies and brings in a brand new kingdom on Earth, a brand new Jerusalem that descends from heaven, a metropolis product of gold with gates of pearl. And the saints, the followers of Jesus, dwell there then, perpetually (laughter). So that is the E-book of Revelation in a nutshell.

GROSS: It actually reads just like the screenplay of, like, an action-horror movie.

EHRMAN: Effectively, it does. And I feel the factor is that most individuals perceive the place action-horror movies are going, however most individuals have actual hassle determining Revelation. It is actually – it is one among these books that folks find out about however nearly no one reads. And the individuals who begin studying it discover it so complicated and so weird, they simply surrender, and so they by no means get to the top, except evangelical or fundamentalist Christians who use it to type of mine for – to – you realize, for items of the puzzle that can clarify what is going on to occur sooner or later.

GROSS: You embrace in your e book the passage from Revelation that describes the locusts. And it is rather creepy and surreal. Do you need to simply learn that passage for us?

EHRMAN: So what occurs on this account is that when the fifth angel blows his trumpet, there are these beasts that come up out of the Earth – locusts – which have the authority of scorpions, and so they’re advised that they’ll torture individuals for 5 months however not kill them. And other people will beg to die, however they are not allowed to die. And they also need to endure simply unbelievable torture for 5 months with out being killed. After which John goes on to explain them.

(Studying) In look, the locusts have been like horses outfitted for battle. On their heads have been what appeared like crowns of gold. Their faces have been like human faces, their hair like ladies’s hair and their tooth like lions’ tooth. That they had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was just like the noise of many chariots with horses dashing into battle. They’ve tails like scorpions, with stingers. And of their tails is their energy to hurt individuals for 5 months.

GROSS: That’s surreal and brutal. And I am questioning, do you suppose if this was written at the moment that any individual can be sending John to a psychotherapist for a analysis and medicine? And I do not imply to be flip about it, however that is the type of paranoid, detailed story that some individuals provide you with who’re actually significantly troubled. And my apologies to individuals who, you realize, imagine, within the rapture and the Second Coming. I do not imply to remove from their perception. However I am simply saying, at the moment if any individual wrote that and took it significantly, they is likely to be despatched for psychiatric assist.

EHRMAN: Yeah. I feel that is in all probability proper. Or not less than the, you realize, the police can be – preserve their eye on them for, you realize, what sort of weapons they’re stockpiling. However the – I feel the fact is that, you realize, once we’re – we’re in such a distinct tradition now that it is laborious for us to get our thoughts round people who find themselves pondering like this.

However John is just not uncommon within the historical world. He wouldn’t have been considered being something like psychotic in antiquity as a result of there have been plenty of different books like this being written which might be utilizing high-level symbolism and really violent imagery to explain what is going on to occur sooner or later. And so he is really taking part in a reasonably broad motion. And that is one of many causes that most individuals do not perceive the E-book of Revelation, is as a result of we do not have something fairly like this anymore. Other than one thing like science fiction novels, there simply is not one thing like this.

And in antiquity, it was a standard style amongst Jews and Christians. And so I might be hesitant to diagnose him at the moment, but when he have been penning this at the moment, I might be very bothered, sure (laughter). And, you realize, you can argue that it was bothersome again then, too, as a result of loads of this imagery is de facto very, very not simply violent, however typically gratuitously violent and attributing this sort of horrible violence to God and to Christ. And I feel lots of people did not like that within the historical world, both.

GROSS: So the people who find themselves saved from all these horrors on earth are those who’re believers and have accepted Jesus because the Messiah, proper?

EHRMAN: Effectively, not – no, not fairly. (Laughter) That is the factor. That is that is actually one of many stunning issues about this. Two issues that I will say which might be stunning in regards to the e book. One is that this view that there is going to be a rapture is just not within the E-book of Revelation. That is one thing that – it is a fashionable thought of the rapture. We will really date it. It was originated within the 1830s, the concept that Jesus will come again, take his followers out, after which it is simply the nonbelievers who’re going to get all this. In actual fact, the Christians are nonetheless right here on Earth. And the second factor is that loads of them endure very badly and in the long run are thrown into the lake of fireplace. So believing in Jesus is not going to be sufficient as a result of for this creator, it’s important to imagine similar to he himself, John, believes and observe your religion similar to he practices it. And lots of people within the church buildings – he tells us individuals within the church buildings are going to be destroyed with all of the pagans.

GROSS: This emphasis on, you realize, pearly gates and a metropolis of gold and Christ himself as bejeweled within the picture that John describes of him – it appears very counter to the anti-materialistic Jesus of the New Testomony. How do you reconcile that?

EHRMAN: Effectively, I do not (laughter). I do not suppose you’ll be able to reconcile it. Lots of people attempt to. And other people all the time have. I imply, the fact is that within the Gospels, as you say, when Jesus talks about wealth, he is towards it. He thinks that folks shouldn’t dwell for materials issues. And so he tells individuals – a wealthy man comes as much as him and says, you realize, what should I do, you realize, for everlasting life? And Jesus says, if you wish to have treasure in heaven, promote every part you could have and provides to the poor. That is – and that is what Jesus did. He left every part to – for his mission. His disciples left their houses and their households and their jobs. And Jesus praises them for it. All through the Gospels, Jesus embraces a gospel of spirituality that’s anti-materialistic.

And it is not the way in which individuals have interpreted. Individuals at the moment interpret it as saying that Jesus thinks that in case you give some away now, you will have much more materials wealth in heaven, you realize that treasures in heaven means you are going to have palaces and issues. And that is not what he is speaking about. The purpose is the fabric issues will not be what you are imagined to dwell with or dwell for. And you will not have these in heaven. You will have a religious existence in heaven. In order that’s Jesus’s educating. However when – that you need to surrender materials issues and that wealth is to not be wanted.

The E-book of Revelation has simply the alternative view in some methods. The E-book of Revelation does have an issue with wealth. It has an issue as a result of the enemy of God in Revelation, town and empire of Rome, is fantastically rich. It has exploited all of the provinces of the empire. It has collected large quantities of wealth. And so the issue in Revelation with wealth is just not that wealth itself is dangerous. The issue in Revelation is that the fallacious individuals have it. The Romans have it, and, you realize, we should always have it. We are the Christians. And so what finally ends up occurring is God takes the wealth from Rome, destroys the Roman world, destroys – takes away all their wealth. And the Christians then have a metropolis of gold and, you realize, gates of pearl and everlasting life residing in unbelievable wealth. So I do not suppose that is the gospel of Jesus in any respect. I feel it is opposite to the gospel of Jesus.

GROSS: Let’s take a brief break right here, after which we’ll speak some extra. For those who’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Bible scholar Bart Ehrman, creator of the brand new e book “Armageddon: What The Bible Actually Says About The Finish.” We’ll be proper again. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ANDREW BIRD SONG, “I”)

GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Bart Ehrman, creator of the brand new e book “Armageddon: What The Bible Actually Says About The Finish.” He is a distinguished professor of spiritual research on the College of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

You was once an evangelical throughout your teenagers and school years. Did you are taking the E-book of Revelation actually?

EHRMAN: Effectively, yeah, I did. In actual fact, you realize, once I was going off to highschool, I used to be 17 going off to Moody Bible Institute after highschool. And I – you realize, I had learn the entire New Testomony, however I had averted the E-book of Revelation as a result of I simply thought, man, that is too weird. I am unable to get a deal with on it. However then I – once I was going to Moody, I knew that there was going to be an entrance examination. I assumed, oh, my God, in the event that they ask a query on Revelation, I have not even learn the factor. So I learn it, and I could not make heads or tails of it. (Laughter) It was so uncommon, I did not know what to say.

However once I received to Moody, all people there had a reasonably good deal with on it as a result of there was a e book that had been in circulation for a very long time at that time – not a very long time, a couple of years at that time – Hal Lindsey’s e book, “The Late Nice Planet Earth.” Many individuals do not know this, however this e book, “The Late Nice Planet Earth,” was the bestselling e book of nonfiction within the English language within the Nineteen Seventies (laughter), other than the Bible. Oh, actually? Yeah. And so this was a e book that defined Revelation. And it defined – and the remainder of the Bible – to point out that it was predicting what was going to occur by the top of the Nineteen Eighties.

And what was going to occur, in accordance with the Bible, was that Israel was going to take over the Temple Mount and was going to destroy the Dome of the Rock and construct the temple there. And this might this might create a – in response, there’d be a coalition of Arab nations that might come collectively to assault Israel. And a 10-person European commonwealth would then intervene in help of Israel. After which Russia – the Soviet Union again then – the Soviet Union would get entangled. And, you realize, then China would see its probability. And principally, there’d be hell breaking out within the Center East. The nuclear bombs would begin dropping. After which Christ would come on the final minute earlier than we wiped ourselves off the face of the planet. This was all within the Bible.

And, you realize, lots of people handled this e book, “The Late Nice Planet Earth,” because the twenty eighth e book of the Bible. It was simply telling the reality. And that is what I assumed. I assumed Jesus is coming again earlier than the top of the Nineteen Eighties, and that is all going to occur.

GROSS: So was the addition of, like, nuclear weapons as a part of the state of affairs, like, one among Hal Lindsey’s improvements, so to talk, in his books?

EHRMAN: I might say it wasn’t an innovation of his, however he is the one who actually pushed it. The deal is that as – I attempt to clarify in my e book that all through most of Christian historical past, to the shock of readers at the moment – all through most of Christian historical past, individuals didn’t learn Revelation as a prediction of what is going on to occur in our future. Because the fourth, fifth centuries, nearly all people learn it as a sign of what was already happening now in symbolic language. However within the – it ended up altering, surprisingly, with the French Revolution.

When the French Revolution hit, the reign of terror was simply so extremely violent that British theologians began pondering that this was a success of scripture, and so they began speaking about Revelation as a prediction of what was occurring of their day, with the indicators now being fulfilled in regards to the finish. And after that time, there have been evangelical Christians who thought that revelation is predicting our future. That each one took a critical change in 1945 as a result of the atomic bombs dropped, confirmed folks that, actually, we actually may put an finish to all this. And in order that’s when nuclear weapons began entering into the image.

And after 1945, nearly the entire eventualities that get painted by all of the prophecy writers, who’re nonetheless publishing all these books, nearly all the time are centered on nuclear alternate as being at – coming on the finish. So Lindsey constructed this up and got here up with this state of affairs that everyone purchased for some time. However he did not invent the thought of the nuclear bombs being the factor.

GROSS: Are you able to title some political leaders in America who not solely believed within the E-book of Revelation, however who took Hal Lindsey’s interpretation at face worth?

EHRMAN: Effectively, apparently Ronald Reagan did. He apparently really consulted with Lindsey now and again. And he and Caspar Weinberger, the secretary of protection, apparently thought that, you realize, that is being predicted, that the nuclear bombs are going to fly. And, you realize, I am not saying that they have been, like, attempting to hasten it, however it’s not a really comforting thought if the commander in chief actually thinks it has to occur. You’d want any individual to suppose that, you realize, we would – you realize, it is not going to occur.

However so anyway, yeah, Reagan apparently did, and Caspar Weinberger and different individuals particularly. I will let you know, I imply, the one all people does find out about is James Watt, who was appointed by Reagan to be the secretary of the inside, who famously, throughout one among his affirmation hearings, was requested whether or not he believed that we would have liked to protect our pure sources for future generations. You already know, he is answerable for preserving our nationwide sources because the secretary of inside. And he replied that, sure, it’s important for us to protect our sources for future generations. However then he stated, however I am unsure what number of future generations there are earlier than Jesus comes again. And, oh, man, did that trigger some consternation.

That is not your typical Washington communicate, you realize, as a result of in case you suppose – even in case you do not suppose he is coming again on Thursday, you realize, in case you suppose he is coming again in about 40 years, why protect your sources? You already know, I imply, why skimp? Why not simply go for it? As a result of in 40 years it is not going to matter anymore. And because it seems, in 2010, there’s a survey of Christians in America, and 47% thought that Jesus both actually or was more likely to come again in 40 years. I imply, nearly half of the Christians in America. And so in case you’ve received Christians in America who say – you realize, half of them do not suppose, you realize, we will be round after 40 years, that actually adjustments your angle towards environmental issues and local weather change. And, you realize, who cares? It would not matter.

GROSS: Particularly in case you imagine that you simply’re one of many people who find themselves going to be raptured.

EHRMAN: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, you are going to be taken out of the world. That is not an issue. However even in case you aren’t taken out of the world, it will simply be seven extra years earlier than – you realize, earlier than the entire thing collapses. So it is 47 years.

GROSS: OK. Effectively, let me reintroduce you once more. My visitor is Bible scholar Bart Ehrman, creator of the brand new e book “Armageddon: What The Bible Actually Says About The Finish.” We’ll be proper again after a brief break. I am Terry Gross, and that is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF RYUICHI SAKAMOTO’S “GERMINATION”)

GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let’s get again to my interview with Bible scholar Bart Ehrman, creator of the brand new e book “Armageddon: What The Bible Actually Says About The Finish.” His e book interprets the E-book of Revelation from a historic perspective and writes about what he finds very disturbing in regards to the picture of God within the e book and the way inconsistent it’s with the Gospel’s tales about Jesus. He thinks Revelation’s depiction of the top occasions and the wars, plagues, beasts, locusts and conflagrations that can torment those that haven’t accepted Jesus as their Messiah has created disastrous issues, together with private and psychological penalties. Ehrman is a former evangelical. He is a distinguished professor of spiritual research on the College of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and is the creator of a number of bestselling books, together with “Misquoting Jesus” and “How Jesus Turned God.”

Let’s speak in regards to the position of Israel within the narrative of the top occasions as described within the E-book of Revelation. What has to occur in Israel earlier than the top occasions are arrange and Jesus returns?

EHRMAN: One of many points I cope with in my e book is the historic query of why it’s that American evangelicals are so supportive of the state of Israel. And I hint the historical past of it as a result of it utterly pertains to Christian understandings, evangelical understandings, of what is going on to occur on the finish of time. And so individuals do not realize this as a result of they suppose, nicely, after all there are all kinds of causes to help Israel. We’ve the difficulty of, you realize, wanting a supporter within the Mideast. You already know, they’re – received to guard oil problem. You already know, there’s points about oil. There’s points about, you realize, stability. And all of that is proper.

However American evangelicals are disproportionately in help of Israel. And the explanation has to do with the Bible. It is as a result of evangelicals have lengthy learn biblical prophecies as – indicating that Israel must be established and powerful earlier than Jesus can return. Israel was destroyed within the second century C.E., and it hadn’t been a nation. And so Christian Zionism, the concept that – Christians saying that Israel has to turn out to be a state once more, that truly began earlier than there was, you realize, the Zionism we’re all aware of on the finish of the nineteenth century and the early twentieth century. And the Christian Zionists completely supported Jewish Zionists as a result of they believed that the prophecy needed to be fulfilled. Later, after 1948, which Christians proceed to – evangelical Christians proceed to see 1948, the institution of Israel, as a success of prophecy.

However there’s yet another factor that has to occur. In accordance – in a type of obscure reference within the New Testomony – it is in Second Thessalonians, Chapter 2 – the creator, claims to be Paul, says that Jesus can not return instantly. However there’s some issues that need to occur first earlier than He returns. The principle factor that has to occur is that there is a determine named the lawless one. He is not known as the Antichrist, however individuals determine him because the Antichrist. The lawless one should go into the temple. And he’ll declare himself God. And after that occurs, then Jesus can return. The issue is that, after all, there isn’t any temple. There hasn’t been a temple for the reason that 12 months 70 of the frequent period. And on the Temple Mount at the moment in Jerusalem, the location of the temple, that is the place the Dome of the Rock is.

GROSS: Which is a Muslim mosque.

EHRMAN: There are Islamic sacred websites on the Temple Mount. And so for Israel to take over the Temple Mount means they have to wipe out these Islamic holy websites. And that implies that, you realize, Israel has turn out to be very robust. Evangelicals suppose that God promised the entire land of Israel to Israel, and so the Palestinian territories have to be taken over. Jerusalem must be managed by Israel utterly. The Temple Mount must be taken over. They need to destroy the Dome of the Rock and construct the Jewish temple there so the Antichrist can go into it and Jesus can come again. And so all of that is simply – that is traditionally why American evangelicals for your complete twentieth century, however particularly beginning within the Nineteen Seventies in a giant manner with the Ethical Majority – the Christian Ethical Majority with Jerry Falwell and firm – that is why they’ve all the time been supportive of Israel.

And it is why within the – particularly within the Nineteen Eighties, Israeli politicians realized, you realize, there are much more American evangelicals than there are American Jews. And that is who we have to go for. And so beginning with Menachem Start, however particularly – I imply, Netanyahu within the Nineteen Eighties was going to evangelical prayer breakfasts and making frequent trigger with evangelicals, saying, you realize, we’re fulfilling scripture now, you realize? And we’re all on the identical web page. It is advisable help us. And so the help of Israel amongst evangelicals is pushed by this eschatological concern that the temple must be rebuilt or Jesus cannot return.

GROSS: So one of many issues that Trump did when he was president again in 2018 was transfer the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. And one of many individuals who not solely spoke on the ceremony for the opening of the embassy in Jerusalem, he really gave the benediction, was Pastor John Hagee, who’s the founding father of Christians United for Israel, which is the type of Christian evangelical pro-Israel group for all the explanations that you simply simply talked about. It is actually all in regards to the apocalypse and the Second Coming. So what does it say to you that Trump moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Was that due to lobbying from Christian Zionists just like the group Christians United for Israel, CUFI?

EHRMAN: Trump, after all, very, very a lot needed evangelical help. And so lots of his insurance policies, after all, are directed towards getting the evangelical vote. His opposition to abortion is essentially the most well-known one, but additionally his help of Israel. And he needed to – very a lot needed to point out the evangelicals that he was on their facet. And the evangelicals need Jerusalem to be the capital. It was the capital within the Previous Testomony. It is the place that deserves to be the capital. It’s the place the place America ought to focus its pursuits. And so, after all, the embassy must be in Jerusalem. So John Hagee, I imply, this fellow who did the benediction, he is a really robust supporter of Israel. He is written books supporting Israel. He is a really robust Christian Zionist. However he is one among these ironies. That he believes in American – he believes completely that Israel must be supported. And he believes completely that Jews are going to hell.

GROSS: So we have been speaking about John Hagee, the Christian Zionist who based CUFI, the acronym for Christians United for Israel. I interviewed him in 2006. And among the many issues he advised me was that Hurricane Katrina was God’s judgment on town of New Orleans as a result of, quote, “there was going to be a gay parade on the Monday that the Katrina got here. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to succeed in a stage of sexuality by no means demonstrated earlier than in some other homosexual satisfaction parades.”

So Katrina was God’s retribution due to this deliberate homosexual satisfaction parade. In order that’s one of many issues he believed. And I need to play an excerpt of his audiotape of sermons known as “Jerusalem Countdown to Disaster.”

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

JOHN HAGEE: In two minutes, let me let you know the place we’re going from right here. This prophetic portrait paints the next sequence of occasion for the long run. America and Europe turn out to be weakened and can’t reply to Israel within the time that Russia and the Arab invasion begins towards Israel. That is God’s plan. Why? As a result of he needs the Jewish individuals in Israel and all over the world to know that He, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saved them, not America. Secondly, Russia, with Arab allies, will plot and plan Israel’s destruction. That is occurring proper now. It has been occurring for 10 years. Iran’s nuclear weapons have been produced with Russian scientists. The Islamic Arabs are utilizing the highway map to peace to get the entire land of Israel they’ll get.

And when Israel lastly says sufficient, you are going to see the start of the implementation of Ezekiel’s battle in 38-39. The important level is the church is raptured earlier than this battle begins. I’m telling you, that makes this message one of the crucial thrilling prophetic messages you’ve got ever heard in your life. You could possibly get raptured out of this constructing earlier than I get via completed preaching. We’re that near the approaching of the son of man.

GROSS: Among the many issues I need to level out in that’s that he is speaking about this, like, horrible battle in Israel and nuclear weapons. And he is saying, that is essentially the most thrilling prophetic message you’ve got ever heard in your life. Positive, it is thrilling for the individuals he imagines, together with himself, ‘trigger I am certain he expects to get raptured. However, you realize, how are you going to name thrilling something that includes nuclear weapons and battle?

EHRMAN: Effectively, proper. I imply – and, you realize, that is proper. And, you realize, he additionally, at one level, indicated that the explanation for the Holocaust is that it was God’s plan. God deliberate the Holocaust as a result of that might facilitate the institution of Israel as a state. And in order that’s why 6 million Jews received slaughtered is in order that Israel may very well be based once more in 1948, as a result of that might fulfill prophecy. And if that fulfills prophecy, then, you realize, it is coming quickly, and we are able to simply rejoice as a result of we will be taken out of right here. It is actually – it is fairly disgusting. Late – after that, any individual identified that possibly that wasn’t transfer to speak about God’s plan for the Holocaust. However, you realize, it did not even happen to him on the time, apparently.

GROSS: Let’s take one other quick break right here. For those who’re simply becoming a member of us, my visitor is Bible scholar Bart Ehrman, creator of the brand new e book “Armageddon: What The Bible Actually Says About The Finish.” We’ll be proper again. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

GROSS: That is FRESH AIR. Let’s get again to my interview with Bart Ehrman, creator of the brand new e book “Armageddon: What The Bible Actually Says About The Finish.” He is a distinguished professor of spiritual research on the College of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and the creator of many books deciphering the Bible.

One of many issues in regards to the E-book of Revelation is that there are such a lot of references in popular culture that come out of it. And loads of us do not even notice that it is from the E-book of Revelation. Like, I noticed the Ingmar Bergman basic movie “The Seventh Seal” again in school. I’ve watched it a number of occasions since. It is a outstanding movie that has lots to do with, like, questioning God and a wierd, like, spiritual cult, and enjoying chess with loss of life is a well-known scene. I did not perceive that “The Seventh Seal” was immediately out of the E-book of Revelation, or “The Grapes Of Wrath” – I did not know that both – or “A Thief In The Night time” or “The Whore Of Babylon” or “The Lake Of Hearth” or “The Pearly Gates Of Heaven.”

Why do you suppose that – as you stated, so few individuals really learn the E-book of Revelation as a result of it is so mystifying and complex, and loads of it would not make easy-to-understand sense. Why do you suppose so many references in popular culture, in songs and flicks and books have come out of that e book?

EHRMAN: Yeah, I do know. And it is – you realize, it is gotten an increasing number of. I imply, particularly, I feel, for the reason that 19 – since 1945, it is turn out to be much more of part of well-liked tradition as a result of individuals notice that, actually, we would blow ourselves off the planet or now, you realize, we expect we would – you realize, that we would really destroy the planet. It is a burning world we’re in. And so individuals naturally take into consideration end-of-the-world issues and it turns their head to Revelation. It has been a really influential e book all through historical past as a result of within the Western tradition, after all, this can be a – you realize, it is a – whether or not an individual is a Christian or not, it has been a Christian tradition. And Revelation has had very lengthy tentacles.

In my e book, I speak about – this is one individuals would not count on – D.H. Lawrence. You already know, D.H. Lawrence – I imply, he is well-known for the racy novels. However his last e book was “The Apocalypse.” He was very bothered by the E-book of Revelation. And he wrote a e book – two weeks earlier than he died, he revealed it, his final e book. And it is about it as a result of he discovered it so disturbing. And I feel loads of the apocalyptic references you get at the moment from even, you realize, post-apocalyptic films and simply – you realize, you simply type of go down an enormous record that the majority anyone may in all probability cite. You simply – it’s tied to this apocalyptic imaginative and prescient.

And it is not simply Revelation. It is as a result of your complete Christian custom has been, from the very starting, apocalyptically oriented within the sense that the understanding is that God created this world, and he will destroy this world, and we’re simply ready for it to occur. And so that you – within the fashionable occasions, you think about eventualities the place it may occur. And the eventualities at the moment are very totally different from what John had in thoughts. However it’s nonetheless – it is the identical fundamental thought. It began with God. It should finish in God. It began with paradise. It is return to paradise. People launched evil. God’s going to destroy evil. And so it is all a part of the bigger arc of the biblical narrative.

GROSS: It is also very colourful. Like, the language in Revelation is colourful.

EHRMAN: It is vastly symbolic. And it is type of ironic as a result of the symbols actually stand out and make you suppose that this can be a literary genius. However one of many realities is that it is a very badly written e book. The Greek of the E-book of Revelation is the worst Greek of the New Testomony, and a lot of the New Testomony Greek is not that nice. However, you realize, he simply makes grammatical errors. So this – however it’s humorous as a result of he has all of those pictures that, as you say – you realize, it has these phrases that simply turn out to be large cultural symbols, actually. And – however it’s from any individual who would not write very nicely.

GROSS: So a query you ask on the finish of your e book is, which Jesus do you mannequin your self on, the Jesus who was anti-materialistic, who stated, flip the opposite cheek, or the Jesus who participates on this unbelievable wrath and retribution, vengeance, violence, bloodshed, plagues, catastrophes, lakes of fireplace? That is a very fascinating query to ponder as a result of – I imply, are you able to reconcile believing in each on the similar time? And is {that a} query you requested your self if you have been nonetheless a believer?

EHRMAN: After I was a believer, I assumed that God was each loving and simply and that we may expertise his love if we’d flip to him, but when we did not, then, essentially, he needed to implement his justice, in order that the E-book of Revelation was his justice, and the Gospels have been his love. And, you realize, I actually do not see it that manner anymore. I feel that the E-book of Revelation is just not actually about God’s justice. Justice is just not the phrase that will get utilized in Revelation. The phrase is wrath.

The e book itself claims that it is in regards to the wrath of God and the Lamb in Christ. The frequent phrases in Revelation will not be phrases like love or hope or justice or mercy. The phrases are wrath, vengeance, revenge, blood, you realize? So these are the phrases, and so they’re not the phrases that you simply discover on the lips of Jesus within the Gospels. Jesus actually thought {that a} destruction of the world was going to come back, however he did not suppose that God was going to be torturing individuals for 5 months with out permitting them to die, as within the E-book of Revelation.

So I feel it actually comes right down to a alternative. And the horrifying factor is, I feel more and more in Christianity, particularly in American Christianity, individuals are actually extra entranced with the violent, vengeful, wrathful Jesus of Revelation, even when they do not learn it. That is the facet they take, somewhat than the loving, caring, merciful Jesus of the Gospels.

GROSS: How are you seeing that expressed?

EHRMAN: Effectively, there’s loads of violence being sponsored by conservative Christians who’re in help of, nicely, taking up the federal government, for instance, who’re in help of all kinds of opposition to social insurance policies that may assist individuals – so opposition to immigration, wanting to chop the budgets in order that we do not assist out the poor. We lower down on serving to those that are desperately in want. However let’s construct up the protection price range, and let’s invade some extra.

And so I will simply say, you realize, there are some wars that I feel are utterly justified. I feel America has been in wars that aren’t justified. And most of those unjustified wars, in my expertise, have been supported by individuals who name themselves Christian who need to take over the world in a technique or one other. So I feel the violent Jesus of Revelation resonates with individuals greater than the harmless Lamb of the Gospels.

GROSS: Bart Ehrman, it is actually been nice to speak with you once more. Thanks a lot.

EHRMAN: Oh, it is my pleasure. I all the time get pleasure from it.

GROSS: Bart Ehrman’s new e book is known as “Armageddon: What the Bible Actually Says In regards to the Finish.” After we take a brief break, John Powers will evaluation a brand new rom-com he says marks the arrival of a brand new wave of Black British expertise. That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript offered by NPR, Copyright NPR.

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